Ashley: 0:00

If this episode gets 500 downloads within the first week, we will get Change Technically hoodies.

Cat: 0:08

Do you even know what our numbers are, babe?

Ashley: 0:10

I haven't been tracking that closely. You're the measurement person!

Cat: 0:13

I can't believe you don't know our download numbers. I sent you a velocity report. I was like,

Ashley: 0:28

What velocity report?

Cat: 0:29

In the first four, within the, no, because I'm interested in the rate at which we have an audience and not simply the raw quantity. It's like a much more thoughtful way of thinking about it. Like how is the, is the, is the the rate of downloads, um, comparable across our episodes? Does one, does one episode have a spike, you know, earlier than another? You should know this. You do like signal processing.

Ashley: 0:55

Yeah no I love this. I'm just like staring at you. Because I'm, I'm, I'm like, it's so interesting to hear you put those in, in some ways, like, different language than, you know, I, well, I think, obviously, the rate of change is interesting, of course.

Cat: 1:12

The rate of change. Yeah. So the rate of change is something I've been thinking about a lot because, um, I think about like stories getting out there and like my research stories getting out there. And, um, yeah, I'm also just cracking up again, because I just, okay, so just so you know, you set a target that we've already exceeded,

Ashley: 1:38

Well, then great, then we get sweatshirts. I don't what the downside of this is

Cat: 1:42

It feels kind of like, um, yeah, kind of like a straw man that you set up or something.

Ashley: 1:47

Well, I thought that's what all podcasters did.

Cat: 1:49

Are you gonna design the was do fake vanity numbers? So, now everybody can know our fake vanity numbers

Ashley: 2:00

Well, tell me more about. Tell me more about this, wanting to know the impact of your research, how do you think about the impact of your research in the world?

Cat: 2:06

My God. Um, it's like the first day of vacation, babe,

Ashley: 2:12

Okay, sorry, sorry, this is supposed to be a holiday episode, not where I'm interviewing you about your success metrics or your velocity score, whatever the hell that was

Cat: 2:20

Sure. Let's talk about impact, you know, because it's like the end of the year and you and I have always, we've always done a lot of, um, uh, like we set New Year's resolutions. And we create little, um, goal tracking charts sometimes, but I think I

Ashley: 2:40

It's kind of gross, yeah, we've done this like, for many, many years. I'll blame it on you though because you definitely started this

Cat: 2:46

Well, the reason I started it is because I went to a party one time that this lovely friend threw, and he had all these markers and poster boards and things like that, and we all sat around and like visualized like our goals for the whole year. And it's really like the, the social impact of how nice that event was like made me feel like this is a good thing to do.

Ashley: 3:07

I love that. So like what, so people could write New Year's resolutions on, a board or something?

Cat: 3:12

It was a lot of, um, you know, it was a lot of behavioral stuff. Like I want to hit the gym three times a week, and so here's three little boxes. I, you know, you've seen these, me do these for years. You know I love to draw boxes that represent every week of the year and then tick them off. And, um, I think I have like a, like a 60 percent success rate at actually remembering that I have this tracking and then doing it.

Ashley: 3:41

Last year, I think I did really well for, like, the first four months of the year, I say last year, in 2024, and, I mean, the big thing for me was I was, I had stopped going to PT in December of 2023 for my knee, because I had an ACL tear a little over two years ago now, and it's been that long. Yeah, and I was like, okay, I'm going to do my own PT at home at least, like, two days a week. And I, I really religiously marked this off on the boxes, because I also have adopted the box approach to New Year's resolutions.

Cat: 4:11

Yeah,

Ashley: 4:11

copypaste in this household Yeah, this lasted for a good four months. And I was actually just thinking, I did PT at home this morning, and I was like, ooh, I could check a box. But now it's just awkward because there's so many unchecked boxes.

Cat: 4:23

Right, that's what happened to me. I stopped checking the boxes and now it's like a rows of empty boxes and then I'm like, I actually do a lot more than is on the sheet or tracked and, and then I kind of have this funny relationship with it. Like, I'm like, I think my sheet of paper is going to think I'm lying because I need to fill in extra boxes. And then I'm like, are these just vanity metrics?

Ashley: 4:45

Yeah. Yeah.

Cat: 4:46

Tracking is like an interesting experience to have.

Ashley: 4:49

I know, I've been thinking about this because I'm trying to like, in my life, strike a balance between being really goal directed and also just like listening to what I need in the moment. And I feel like when we set up these like quite literal boxes that we're trying to check in our life, like it does take a little bit away from like, you know, what does my body need today? Do I need to do PT or not? Or, you know. But then again, like, I'm underestimating systematically how often I need to do PT

Cat: 5:18

Yeah, I think this is really interesting because I feel like a lot of people, or not a lot of people, I think the advice out there is kind of like, track stuff, because you're a lazy dummy who like, won't do it. And you and I are always finding that actually we do a lot more than we've ever tracked, and the tracking is kind of more like, keeping track so that we can stop doing so much.

Ashley: 5:44

It's like we're trying to take the cognitive load off of like, or maybe it's like the emotional load of feeling like we're not doing enough and almost like convince ourselves that we're doing the thing.

Cat: 5:54

Yeah, exactly. And also I think there's like a journaling quality for you and I both like we both really like to, we, we spend all this effort and we want to make it real. Like, you kind of want to have a commemoration of it. And so you were really religiously committed to your PT, very diligent about it. And that was like, A second job basically for you and um, you know, I don't know I think checking it off is a way to sort of just concretize it

Ashley: 6:22

Yeah, I think that's true. I mean, is it, is the thing here that like, you know, at the end of the day, maybe we shouldn't tie our value. So closely to checking off the boxes Like, you know, like you said like oh like, you know, we we set up these goals for ourselves because it's like oh you big dummy like you're never gonna do this if you if you don't like set it up but maybe it's okay to like give yourself a little bit of a little bit of freedom a little of blurryness

Cat: 6:48

I've never felt like the boxes were a source of value. I actually kind of felt more like that's why I said it's kind of like journaling because it's like it's more just like um, I mean, I I make those boxes I like those boxes like they're not being like reported to my boss or something, you know, it's-

Ashley: 7:07

Until now. Picture

Cat: 7:09

and

Ashley: 7:10

sends to boss.

Cat: 7:10

Like you're gonna send that that would be weird.

Ashley: 7:14

That would be so invasive. I'm just kidding. I would never do that.

Cat: 7:17

That was so weird that you just said that. Um, you don't even have a box, a boss that I could send your boxes to.

Ashley: 7:24

so what would happen is you would send it to my university and it would get like shuffled through some bureaucratic nightmare.

Cat: 7:29

Okay, there's so many end of 2024 things we have to process here. I'm like trying to stay on track with what you're asking about. I think we both read this essay about the limits of data, right? And I heard that same language come out that we read in the essay and what you just said, which is about, you know, that your values are never going to be contained in the measurement. The moment you let a measurement start to lead you around and, and define your values, that's like the moment that you lose. Um, And I, I, I actually think about when I sit down and I, you know, think about goals and I'm literally running a research project right now about people achieving their goals. So, you know, I've read a lot about this and, um, I think about very different kinds of things to reward myself for doing. And so some of my things are like categorical achievements. Like I have this. this kind of crazy thing I'd like to have happen at some point in this year, and I'm not sure where, but like, you know, this is like a categorical goal. Like, I'll have, you know, taken one trip that looks like whatever, and I'm not sure when it's going to happen or how, but eventually, like, we'll get there. And then I have a lot of, like, activity focused goals, because I think for me, that's the stuff that I find hard to remember and I could look back on the last two months and say, why, why do I feel, do I feel worse or do I feel better? You know, it like sort of knowing that I went to the gym three times a week, it's just something I don't want to trouble my own brain with. I just want something else to be containing that. And I can reflect on it when I need it, you know

Ashley: 9:22

Yeah, like as a journal, as you said.

Cat: 9:24

Yeah. And then also like there's outcome goals for that. There's like, you know, I've been working on my respiratory health for, you know, two years and there's goals with that. There's kind of like, can I feel safe and secure going on a hike with you on vacation? And then there's also just like process goals, because sometimes, you know, the recovery has been really nonlinear. And so the process goals give me the sense of like, yes, you always still went to the gym, even though today it was worse than the other day. And, you know, I had to do a different kind of workout, but you know, you hit that. So I think about a lot of stuff like trading off each other.

Ashley: 10:04

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So in terms of that essay we read, and that we can link in the show notes, we, that, that essay talks about, you know, as soon as you start tracking something, it becomes meaningless, right? This idea like that, if a company is like, or, or sort of like,

Cat: 10:23

I don't feel like that's the becomes meaningless?,

Ashley: 10:26

Sorry, it's the, the idea is like, as soon as you set something as a goal, it becomes meaningless. As soon as you, as you would say, operationalize it.

Cat: 10:34

I think it's as, as soon as you cede your own decision making to the measure, I mean, in a he was saying the measures have a lot of meaning, but like,

Ashley: 10:45

Yeah. But the idea of like, okay, let's say, you know, this, this happened with like, mouse movements and people trying to work from home, right? So like, as soon as they said, oh, if you move your mouse so many times an

Cat: 10:57

Oh, a computer mouse. I immediately thought you meant neuroscience mouse.

Ashley: 11:02

Gosh. Yeah. I should probably clarify when we're talking.

Cat: 11:05

Okay. Right. Okay. So people working at home, mouse movements.

Ashley: 11:09

So they, so they, you know, companies were like, okay, you know, we're going to track your mouse movements to know if you're physically at your desk. And then as soon as that became the goal, people bought these devices that would jitter their mouse.

Cat: 11:21

Okay. Yeah, sure. The classic, like people modify their behavior to game the system. Um, I don't think that was the whole point of the essay

Ashley: 11:30

No, no, not the whole point, but it's a point within it. And I think it's interesting in the context of this conversation, because we're talking about goal setting for ourselves and

Cat: 11:38

Right goal doesn't belong to the measure. measure belongs to the goal.

Ashley: 11:42

Yeah. And I think like, okay. You know, if you, if you don't have like real intention in meeting these goals, like, let's say your goal is I'm going to go to the gym five days a week. And that's what you say the goal is. Well, does that mean you show up at the gym and you do five minutes of workout and you leave and you check the box? Like that's the, that's the

Cat: 11:59

count as a real gym session?

Ashley: 12:03

Yeah. Or, or like, is there, you know, a deeper value and like, really it's about changing your intentions

Cat: 12:08

I'm feeling like a lot of I'm feeling like arguing with you really.

Ashley: 12:16

Wait, like you want to argue with me? Yeah, please, please argue with me.

Cat: 12:21

Okay. So yeah, and I I And I love you and you're making like incredibly good points, but I just feel like I'm on the side of things so much so much of the time that's just like measurement is really beautiful and powerful and there's all kinds of I'm just really tired of just in my world, I've heard for like a million, a million times over, oh my gosh, we can't measure anything. As soon as we measure anything, human beings will corrupt it. The answer is to never measure anything. And it's just like, well, that sucks for those of us who are the victims of bigoted evaluation or who aren't in the old boys club, you know, and, and the whole, like, I'll know it when I see it and I'm going to promote my friends. Like, that's also a world in which things never get measured. I'm going to promote my friends and my friends are all white dudes. And, um, so that's why I think the essay that we both read is like a little bit deeper because it's like saying. You know, context gets stripped out of quantified measures and context matters, but there are also reasons we do that. And I've, I've, you know, been a person in that position, making the choice to strip out context sometimes to create a measure that will travel and sometimes influence a decision maker, you know, and so that's stuff like, you can stand in front of a politician all you want and tell them a sad story about a student, but honestly, you know, it's a different form of power and influence to say, I have measured all of the students who were on the free and reduced lunch program and shown like the relative gain that you can get by investing more dollars into these schools in exactly this way. Right. And like, I believe incredibly deeply that like we, share meaning in those measures. And so what, uh, what you want to push back on is just the kind of like constant hate for all measurement.

Ashley: 14:32

Yeah, no, and obviously, obviously I love measurement, you know Obviously I am someone who, when possible, puts numbers behind statements. Like, even when I was writing my book, I wanted it to be extremely evidence backed. Like, you know, I wanted to have the numbers from grad programs, like, the statistics in terms of who gets in and why. Like, all of this stuff really matters to me.

Cat: 14:57

People don't argue with you about your numbers

Ashley: 14:59

No, right, so I come from a field where, yeah, like, we have, you know, we have to measure it. Like, I couldn't just, like, publish a paper that was like, here's you know, how owls make decisions about what prey to eat just because I thought this was true. Like, I have to have data to show it. So, obviously, yeah, I'm not fighting the same battles you are on a daily basis. But, I mean, I think, I think actually, like, what I was trying to say was a little more hopeful. Because, you know, I think if we want to keep our new year's resolutions, you know, but we want to operationalize them, right. Like we could do the cheating thing, which is only go to the gym for five minutes, right. But I think most of us would feel in our heart of hearts that that's not the same thing as really committing to your fitness. Right. And so I guess what I'm saying is like, you know, I think there's like, there's a power in putting things on paper and setting a goal and the thing that has to come along with that. Come along with that measurement is like the intention and the, and the culture, like kind of bringing this back to some of your other work. Right. You need a culture and a context in which you can actually make that thing happen in the way you really intended. Right. And I think for you, it's like, you know, measuring like employee productivity or something. Okay. If you want to put some metrics on it, like, great. But like, if you don't set that up in a culture where people can actually do it the way you intended, like, so that you're meeting the underlying value, the underlying, like, motivation behind the thing, that's what makes, like, the goal setting, like, and the measurement of those goals really effective.

Cat: 16:40

Yeah, even if we just stay on the level of like New Year's resolutions, you know, and I, I, I guess a sort of silly, I, I don't know if this is like exactly a response to your, your thesis there. I'm just going to say it, like, I, I, I was really scared to go to the gym, you know, and like my lungs hurt for a long, long time and I had a lot of incredibly scary stuff and I'm like, yes, I totally see what you're saying. But on the other hand. Like there was a time in which walking into the gym building stretching on a mat and leaving immediately was a victory and you know, it's it's just sort of interesting to set a goal and then to go live your life and meet reality and maybe realize like that living out the work that you have to do to meet your goal is actually, you know, is way harder than you thought, or showing up actually looks way simpler, or you're only going to get a fraction of the way there. So that's maybe like a tiny counterpoint from a behavioral science point of view. If someone's struggling to work out and get themselves to the gym, it's kind of like fake it till you make it actually works on us

Ashley: 18:03

Yeah. Yeah.

Cat: 18:03

And so that's sort of profound that. There's a negative part of this, which is like, we might be gaming metrics and it's meaningless, but there's a really beautifully cool part of this, which is like you make yourself go through the motions, and then you start to feel your way towards a new version of yourself.

Ashley: 18:25

Totally. I mean, I think, I think that's kind of like a, a beautiful addition. Is that like. You know, you have to be sort of like realistic and also iterative in the way you set goals and like maybe initially you set out some goal and you're like, look, actually, the thing is just getting myself out the door, you know, getting myself to leave the house. And that's really the thing. Right. And I think what you described is like, and you're the psychologist. So you tell me, but, you know, the, this is like the

Cat: 18:52

You tell me how much dopamine it causes.

Ashley: 18:54

This is the basis of like cognitive behavioral therapy, right? Like you just expose yourself to these new things or like the thing you're moving towards

Cat: 19:01

And multiple kinds of therapy, not just

Ashley: 19:03

Not just CBT. Yeah.

Cat: 19:04

But like to create behavioral experiments in your own life is the basis of a lot of different, you know, and, and create it, you know, I would say the modern forms of therapy, which, which emphasize all kinds of things, like being in a safe enough space to do it and like cultural, cultural, culturally responsive methods, which think about, the interaction between you and the environment and that you could, you could run a certain kind of experiment in certain kinds of settings that, you know, are good for you now. I'm just throwing keywords at you. I'm yeah. I wrote my first clinical psychology paper this year and it was like, really cool for me.

Ashley: 19:49

Yeah. I mean, I think there's like, there's so much overlap between all these things between, you know, like what it is that you're trying to do in your work, what it is that all of us are trying to do just on a daily basis to be like better humans. And I think this is probably like a lot of people's minds. Like, right now, as they think about a new year, as we think about a new president, as we think about, like, whatever it is, like, what is it that we actually want to move towards? And how do we do that?

Cat: 20:14

Like I said, it's the first day of vacation, babe. And, uh, I'm on the level of the little boxes.

Ashley: 20:24

Well, you know, I think this is another reason we need the little boxes is because sometimes you get out of bed and you're like, I don't even know how to think about what I need to do today. But you look at the little boxes and they tell you to do the thing

Cat: 20:34

Little boxes contain wisdom.

Ashley: 20:37

They contain wisdom from prior you.

Cat: 20:39

Yes, they contain wisdom from like the, you know, the sessions that you and I have where we sit down and we're making our mutual little boxes like they contain social wisdom. Um, I I think sometimes metrics are just reminders, right? It's just like oh, yeah, remember you have that goal like remember you have that thing. Yeah, like cool this is a measure but the measure is just like a little a little symbol a little signal and um, I I feel like an an an ease and like a lightness in my relationship to my own measurements when I treat it that way. I'm like, we all know the goal's bigger, but this measurement is kind of a cute little way to remember to think about it.